Environmental Tolerance Adaptations

I feel like suddenly being booted out of your patch like so could be pretty jarring though, but then again I suppose it would be similar to our plan of booting you out of patches once your local population reaches zero.
Personally I prefer the idea of players being able to enter a patch before being particularly adapted to it, so long as they can at least survive that is. My justification for this being that it will give players a better feeling of choice as to where they want to go without being bluntly gated out of areas because of their stats. Also as far as I am aware, species in reality usually don’t adapt to an environment prior to moving into it. Instead they are often pushed into a less favorable environment for whatever reason where they then begin adapting to thrive in it.

I’m not against the idea though, it is doubtlessly the easiest and quickest option out of those presented which is pretty good when we have so many other things to work on. We also wouldn’t have to worry about communicating to the player how adapted they are to the patch quite as much.

1 Like

I imagine it would work so that it pops up a panel showing the patch map and telling you to select alternative patch to play in.

That’s a good point. What would you suggest the penalty would be for not being adapted to the conditions in the patch you are in? Increased osmo costs, decreased process efficiency, less health?

Ah I see. I personally would not be entirely for such a mechanic for the reasons Buckly explained right above me. My personal preference would probably be for Option 2, increased osmo costs, but I feel like option 3 would be pretty solid too.

Woops, I suppose I forgot to mention that. When I first brought up the topic in our discord I was in support of making organelles less efficient in production (proteins denaturing and preventing the cell from functioning at peak performance) and I would still prefer that method out of the three Nickthenick provided. However, simply increasing osmoregulation cost would probably be easier and quicker to code and balance and have close to the same effect so I’ll think about which one might be better. I’m not a big fan over damage over time as while it would provide the player with a strong sense of urgency and danger it probably wouldn’t be fun. However, as you worded it, just having reduced max health could provide a similar effect without effectively being a timer.

1 Like

It wouldn’t be super difficult to add like a Microbe wide parameter to the process system to multiply the process output values by. That could be lowered to something like 0.9 to reduce all process outputs in that cell by 10%.

Showing these effects in the editor or somewhere is probably the harder part. In the end it might be clearer to reduce the process outputs as those are dynamically computed for the editor tooltips. Explaining in the editor that osmoregulation is suddenly higher probably needs a bit more work. Though even the tooltips showing lower process outputs might be too confusing without some indicator that environmental conditions is lowering it.

Now that I thought about it, I thought of one difference between options 2 and 3. Option 2 allows high energy production to be a strategy to avoid environmental penalties (to a reasonable limit), since the only penalty is a higher ATP cost.

Option 3 would be more punishing, because it’s a reduction to efficiency of ALL your organelles. This means your flagella, your agent secretors, and your energy producing organelles all get hit. This could be a good thing though, if we want it to be more challenging. A problem I just thought of though is this: If you’re in a biome that is too hot AND too acidic for you, and you have a heat resistance protein, does the acidity reduce the effectiveness of your heat resistance protein, in effect further reducing the effectiveness of your organelles?

1 Like

In the event of multiple inhibiting environmental factors, I would be in favor of them effecting your cell in separate ways. For example we could have excess heat and cold reduce your organelle function, where as acidity and alkalinity could do something like reducing your cell’s max health. Doing this would make the effects on your cell easier to measure and understand, while still being the double trouble it is.

1 Like

Ah yeah interesting, that’s true. Perhaps increased osmoregulation cost could also be a possible penalty among the list? I’m undecided now between Options 2 and 3. If we were to choose option 3, what penalties would we want each variable to incur? I know the current list of environmental factors is:

  • Pressure
  • Temperature
  • Light

Acidity and salinity are planned but still not implemented. I don’t believe there are any others.

1 Like

Oxygen would also be a hazard in the future once we get the great oxygenation event.
As the game world turning from a place without oxygen to one with, would be an interesting change.

2 Likes

Right I totally forgot about the environmental gasses, which could also present hazards. Do we have enough unique penalties to cover all of them? Do we want some of them to share similar penalties? Or do we want one, unified penalty. This is something I’ve barely thought about so I have very few opinions.

I found this thread (Compound Toxicity) from last year, it should have some good ideas.

2 Likes

Thanks @Narotiza that’s a useful one to have on hand. I wonder if compound toxicity is a big enough discussion to warrant its own discussion in that thread to finalize the concept.

After thinking about this, I’ve come to agree with @Buckly’s original thought that penalties should just give a reduction to organelle efficiency. I feel like different penalties for different environmental variables might get hard to design, and hard to remember as the player, but let me know if you guys feel otherwise.

Specifically, when I say efficiency I mean the rate at which the organelle operates. This will apply to all organelles that process compounds (so environmental tolerance organelles are exempt). This in effect reduces the ability of a cell to sustain and reproduce in foreign environments. If more variables are out of range, the penalties will stack. Here would be some sample numbers:

Temperature: -10% efficiency for every 5°C out of range.
Pressure: -10% efficiency for every 20 atm out of range.
Light: -10% efficiency for every 5% out of range.
pH: -10% efficiency for every pH 0.5 out of range.
Salinity: -10% efficiency for every 1000 ppm out of range.

These numbers are based on my latest post in this thread.

2 Likes

Based on the polls:

It looks like players largely agree and look forward to a system that allows entering biomes you are not tolerated for, with associated penalties. So if there are no objections to this concept, I can update the related wiki page with the list of penalties I put in the post above this one. @Buckly what are your thoughts on the system. Once finished with the penalty system, we can design the organelles that grant environmental tolerance:

Here is a working list of the adaptations, from the "Differentiating Microbe Biomes" thread:

Temperature

  • Heat Resistant Proteins
  • Antifreeze Proteins
  • Cell Wall (Cellulose, chitin, silicate, etc.)

Pressure

  • Higher/Lower Internal Osmotic Pressure
  • Contractile Vacuole
  • Cell Wall (Cellulose, chitin, silicate, etc.)

Light

  • Pigment Proteins
  • Cell Wall (Cellulose, chitin, silicate, etc.)

pH

  • Acid Neutralizing Proteins
  • Alkaline Neutralizing Proteins
  • Cell Wall (Cellulose, chitin, silicate, etc.)

Salinity

  • Halophilic Proteins
  • Cell Wall

Is there a reason why you didn’t include oxygen resistance on that list?

I wanted to tackle compound toxicity and resistances later, since I presume it wouldn’t just be oxygen that could damage you (hydrogen sulphide and perhaps other compounds can be toxic as well).

1 Like

These values and hazards seem like a good start as we can fine tune them once implemented, I’m fine with them. I remember suggesting light be a hazard in the past as a counter to photosynthesis and the active theorists at the time declined the idea, stating that water acts as an effective shield against UV radiation and heat so make of that as you would.
One thing I’m somewhat worried about is the player feeling overwhelmed by all these barriers. It doesn’t seem like much right now but it can quickly add up once we move on to hazardous compounds next. It’s certainly something we will have to experiment with a bit to make sure it’s fun.
Otherwise I feel there could be some satisfaction to choosing to specialize and adapt to a specific environment for greater returns as it’s sure to provide the player with a nice sense of progress.

2 Likes

Oh that’s strange, because I could’ve sworn Light has been planned as an environmental variable/hazard for the Microbe Stage since the start of the project. Plus there’s actual scientific evidence of it as a hazard, which I covered in this thread:

Basically before the development of an ozone layer for your planet, the deep sea is the only place life can survive and evolve away from the deadly radiation of sunlight.

I was worried about that too, but I realized the other day that some of these variables don’t change much from patch to patch. For example, salinity will almost always be the same in all ocean patches (typical saltwater levels), and the same in all river/lake patches (freshwater levels). Then, the one exception to this would be rare patches like a salt sea / salt lake where it would be very high. pH / Acidity is another one that mostly won’t change except for rare examples.

I know very true, I know one of the aspects that added at least an hour to my latest Microbe Stage playthrough was trying to migrate from the Hydrothermal Vents to the Tidepool, and the challenge kept me hooked to keep playing every time I died trying.

1 Like

Wiki page updated!

If you look under “Habitability”, it shows the list of starting environmental tolerances for the original species on a typical Earth-like planet. Then below that it shows the penalties for each variable for being outside of your range.

Because of the progress we’ve made in the discussions in this thread and the Differentiating Microbe Biomes thread:

I will be able to update the Environmental Variables for all the game’s biomes soon, but this will be meaningless for now until we code in the penalties. We can also start discussing what the different editor adaptations will be that will allow cells to survive different environments. Here’s a list from the Differentiating Biomes thread:

Temperature

  • Heat Resistant Proteins
  • Antifreeze Proteins
  • Cell Wall (Cellulose, chitin, silicate, etc.)

Pressure

  • Higher/Lower Internal Osmotic Pressure
  • Contractile Vacuole
  • Cell Wall (Cellulose, chitin, silicate, etc.)

Light

  • Pigment Proteins
  • Cell Wall (Cellulose, chitin, silicate, etc.)

pH

  • Acid Neutralizing Proteins
  • Alkaline Neutralizing Proteins
  • Cell Wall (Cellulose, chitin, silicate, etc.)

Salinity

  • Halophilic Proteins
  • Cell Wall
2 Likes

It’s been a while since we last touched on this topic. I figured it would be a decent idea to go ahead and further this discussion by proposing more specific stats to start with for how parts will modify a cell’s tolerance. As well as to provide some insight on how the tolerance stats could be handled.

Organism Tolerance

Variables:
Most tolerance stats will possess two independent variables that will determine the organism’s range of tolerance. For example, a species could have a high heat tolerance, but a low cold tolerance. (5C/57C). Different parts could adjust either or both of these variables in different ways, ensuring a more dynamic approach to adaptation. We will have to think about how best to display this information to the player, as well as to properly communicate how parts will change specific parts of these ranges.

There are of course, some environmental variables that won’t fit within a tolerance range. Hazards such as radiation (I think simply replacing light with radiation as a hazard would fit better.) will just have one variable that represents a cell’s maximum tolerance. This should be relatively easy to understand and convey to the player compared to the range variables.

Efficiency:
Efficiency will be a new percentile value that determines a part’s current level of function in relation to a cell’s current environment. This variable should work much like the light and oxygen requirements many parts possess, but at 100% scaling. That way, if a cell is at 50% efficiency, their parts will be halved in function. Whenever a cell is outside one of their tolerance ranges, this value will be reduced, handicapping their processes as a result. This should also allow players to easily understand how well their cell is going to function when comparing patches they want to travel to.

Membrane Tolerance:
Membranes can have more situational value and use by having an effect on a cell’s tolerance. I will list my proposed values below. Note that the left number is minimal and right is max tolerance in the case of ranges. (Minimum/Maximum). Also note that I am entirely unsure of the accuracy of pH tolerance on the different membranes. (I do at least recall that diatoms are sensitive to pH so I intend to reflect that with the silica wall.) So I would like to request our theorists to help me out with this whenever possible.

Single Membrane:
Temp: -5C/+5C
Pressure: -50atm/+50atm
Radiation: +0
pH: +0/+0
Salinity: +0ppm/+0ppm

Double Membrane:
Temp: -10C/+5C
Pressure: -50atm/+50atm
Radiation: +5
pH: -0.1/+0.1
Salinity: -500ppm/+500ppm

Cellulose Wall:
Temp: +5C/+5C
Pressure: +150atm/+150atm
Radiation: +20
pH: -0.5/+0.8
Salinity: -500ppm/+500ppm

Chitin Wall:
Temp: +0C/+5C
Pressure: +150atm/+150atm
Radiation: +10
pH: -0.8/+0.5
Salinity: -500ppm/+500ppm

Calcium Carbonate Wall:
Temp: -15C/-5C
Pressure: -50atm/+100atm
Radiation: +15
pH: -0.1/+0.3
Salinity: -500ppm/+500ppm

Silica Wall:
Temp: +5C/+15C
Pressure: +200atm/+500atm
Radiation: +15
pH: +0.3/-0.1
Salinity: -500ppm/+500ppm

Parts and their effects:
Aside from specialized parts, some parts should be able to provide species with bonuses relating to their functions, such as chloroplasts providing some amount of radiation resistance.

Metabolosomes:
Temp: -0.5C/+0C

Mitochondria:
Temp: -1C/+0C

Thylakoid:
Radiation: +1

Chloroplast:
Radiation: +3

With that out of the way, Please remember that these values are simply something to start with should we choose to implement this feature. I am open to discussing them, and would like to hear what everyone thinks. The bulk of a species’ tolerance will likely mostly be determined by dedicated parts, which I intend to go into at a later time.
I am also considering that instead of certain parts having a set bonus as I listed above, that they could be modified via organelle customization to sacrifice main functions in return for tolerance. (Such as metabolosomes being less efficient in return for producing heat.)

Edit: I have chosen to go ahead and look into specific values for the environmental attributes for each patch. I did some miniscule research on the matter to make sure the values are at least somewhat within the realm of reason and not just conjured from nothing, but I would feel more comfortable once a Theorist has approved of them.

Edit: Turns out I am blind and completely failed to notice that Nick appears to have already worked out the biome stats of each patch type so just disregard everything below this. :l

Patch Conditions

Below is a list of average and initial values for the corresponding patch types.
For now, consider light level as synonymous with radiation level until we discuss how radiation should function in Thrive.

Vents:
I believe the average temp for vents should be a little lower. This is because the vents have a drastically different temperature compared to all other patches which would make it difficult for species to transition between the locales. We can still have high temperature zones localized within the patch, but overall I feel it should be more lenient.
Temp: 54C
Pressure: 300 Bar
Lux: 0%

Sea Floor:
Why are the depths of the vents and seafloor different? Rather awkward how the player must go deeper before reaching the ocean surface.That’s probably more of a connecting patch issue though.
Temp: 4C
Pressure: 500 Bar
Lux: 0%

Abyssopelagic:
Temp: 2C
Pressure: 550 Bar
Lux: 0%

Bathypelagic:
Temp: 4C
Pressure: 200 Bar
Lux: 0%

Mesopelagic:
Not sure why it is colder in this patch, I would personally keep the temperature at least matching the Bathypelagic or warmer. But I will leave it unchanged as I don’t know any better.
Temp: 2C
Pressure: 50 Bar
Lux: 5%

Cave:
Temp: 23C
Pressure: 50 Bar
Lux: 0%

Epipelagic:
Temp: 8C
Pressure: 10 Bar
Lux: 100%

Tidepool:
Temp: 23C
Pressure: 1 Bar
Lux: 100%

Coast:
Temp: 17C
Pressure: 10 Bar
Lux: 100%

Coast:
Temp: 17C
Pressure: 10 Bar
Lux: 100%

I would like to post an idea of @Maxonovien’s here for future reference.

Instead of the local oxygen level directly debilitating cells when they are present in the patch, oxygen would instead slowly seep into the cell and be “stored”. The oxygen would be of little concern to the player until it begins to reach critical levels in the cell, and so the mechanic effectively becomes a timer of how long the player can safely last within the patch before they begin to experience debilitation.

As Max put it, there would be two primary strategies available to avoid critical oxygen intake;

  1. absorb as little oxygen as possible (limiting your absorption for every compound, including oxygen)
  2. Use as much oxygen as possible (having organelles process it before it builds up, and requiring more osmoregulation).

This would provide further strategic emphasis for the various membrane types by giving absorption rates a more meaningful impact on gameplay.

However we still need to consider how this will effect photosynthetic species and how they will vent excess O2, as well as what debilitations players experience when at critical oxygen levels. As well as if the mechanic would be too much for players to worry about or not.

It would also be nice to receive input from our theorists in regards to how realistic this mechanism would be.

3 Likes