Reconsidering the Multicellular-Aware Transition

The multicellular stage, according to our legacy concepts, starts upon unlocking multicellularity and ends upon evolving a nervous system. This resulted in some awkwardness in that there would inherently be an early-late multicellular split, with the first half having microbe mechanics, and the second half having macroscopic mechanics.

I was generally not too bothered by this before, but recent discussions considering the limitations of transition between microscopic and macroscopic have changed my mind. Traditional concepts about the multicellular stage had an ambitious, continuously smooth transition between small and big, asking for there to be practically no abrupt jump. Recent concepts, dealing with the obvious difficulty of such a transition format, have instead proposed jumping to somewhere around a couple of centimeters of size as a macroscopic organism.

This jump now presents a very difficult issue - the nervous system likely evolves pretty soon after eukaryotic life becomes macroscopic: not before, or at a point of being microscopic. It is just unnecessary and unrealistic for a microbial, multicellular organism with barely differentiated cells to evolve anything like a nervous system, which was largely a response to a greater need to coordinate activity across thousands and thousands of increasingly variable cells. The microscopic organisms which do have a nervous system, like water bears, likely evolved them as larger organisms, and then afterwards shrunk down.

Besides plain old concerns about realism - since the nervous system would evolve pretty soon after the player becomes macroscopic, is it not odd to have an official “transition” to another stage be presented not at the most significant change in Thrive’s entire experience, but instead a couple of minutes afterwards? When an entirely new set of mechanics essentially have to be redefined, and many previous mechanics are fundamentally altered or irrelevant?

I know that we are aiming for as seamless of transitions as possible, so with a very romantic perspective, our stage names are nothing more than convenient markers for our discussion. But with the jump in scale now being necessary between the microscopic and macroscopic, there is the reality of a baked-in split in gameplay that our legacy concepts just aren’t accommodative of; in other words, the legacy marker is no longer convenient. The prototype multicellular stage already technically is dealing with that issue, which is why the evolution of a neuron is jammed in there. And our discourse has been split between “early” and “late” multicellular to denote two completely different sets of gameplay mechanics, which compromises realism behind the game, consistency of our discussions, and general organizing of our concepts.

In my opinion, we might need to reconsider the transition between microscopic and macroscopic as the ultimate signifier of a switch between the stages, not the evolution of a nervous system. We can keep the names, but they should probably refer to different parts of the game: Multicellular can refer to the microscopic multicellular gameplay, whereas Aware refers to the advent of the macroscopic stage as a whole. Aware stage will likely require the most development effort, and represents the meat of our game, so having the aware stage concept be cognizant of this and self-contained could be very good for organizing development.

Thoughts?

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I agree with almost all of the above. For the general sake of discussion I will put out a suggestion for a concrete plan to handle this in the short term.

Most simply, we rename early-multicellular to multicellular and insert a new stage after it called macroscopic to take the place of late-multicellular. As the concept of a stage is pretty abstract, this doesn’t change too much. Stages have mainly 3 uses. General discussion, which we seem to agree this would help clarify, gameplay effects, and our versioning and roadmap system.

In the code-base early and late are already completely separated, and it would be trivial to rename them for gameplay purposes. Which is the only real effect this should have on gameplay due to the already existing separation.

We are quickly approaching 1.0.0, and soon we will need to start making the roadmap for the next stage. Splitting up these sections with vastly different gameplays would allow us to make a much clearer and actionable roadmap. Additionally, it would allow us to keep the momentum from the 1.0.0 release and finish the next stage relatively quickly instead of jumping right into the largest stage.

Deus talks about the Aware stage above, and I agree it needs more discussion, so I can’t really suggest anything actionable for it yet.

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I agree that this is a rather tricky issue, but I have a few questions regarding this:

Wouldn’t that make aware an extremely long stage compared to multicellular? Or rather, wouldn’t that make multicellular extremely short?

I mean, I don’t know how much we could stretch early multicellular gameplay feature-wise to make up at least an hour of game that’s not a mirror of microbe stage but replacing organelles with cells, while aware would introduce a wider array of several new interesting and different features to at least make up some hours of gameplay. I guess the advantage of this would be that 2.0.0 would come much sooner without macroscopic.

I mentioned in the discord that a fix to this would’ve been if early multicellular and microbe stage had been one since the start, which isn’t really an option
to change it right now since that’d present the issue of making the wait for 1.0.0 even longer, and that would be more of a disadvantage considering the state of the game.

I think this is nicer since it doesn’t make aware larger

IIRC, HH has mentioned in the community forums that it would be impossible to write as good roadmap at the start of multicellular development since there are a lot of uncertainties left.

I don’t really understand the “few centimeters jump” part, does this mean that after becoming a macroscopic organism, there’s a sudden jump and the player is now in control of a larger organism?

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I had the same idea but I thought it would be maybe a bit confusing as macroscopic kind of defines all of the later stages after it as well. Though now that I thought about it a bit more I guess that is the same as other stages… So I guess I’m actually in favour of calling early multicellular always multicellular and late multicellular can be renamed to macroscopic and made into its own stage. That way 2.0 will be very fast after 1.0.

This is still true. I’ve mostly been the only one to do anything on the prototypes, so before anyone else starts really working on them, I think it is pretty silly to try to lock in a roadmap. I think the time for a roadmap will be when we’ve done couple of releases of a stage as by that point I think the ideas for what the stage needs will be much better understood.


So I guess in summary I’ll say that I think it would make sense to give distinct names for early and late multicellular officially. Though I’m not looking forward to the mess of sorting out forum thread categories, wiki pages and all references in the code to rename without breaking anything.

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Wouldn’t that make aware an extremely long stage compared to multicellular? Or rather, wouldn’t that make multicellular extremely short?

It’s fine if multicellular doesn’t take too long as a stage. In my head, I am thinking an average playthrough of the Microbe Stage would take somewhere around two hours at a not-rushing-but-not-lingering pace, with the Multicellular stage taking maybe an hour and a half or so afterwards. If the Multicellular Stage is basically developed as a super-charged version of the Microbe Stage, then the assumption is that the player is more familiar with the underlying mechanics of the game as a whole. So we should be able to introduce a few mechanics that are more in-depth, adding new dimensions to cell design.

That would result in three to four hours of “Microscopic Gameplay” in a playthrough depending on the player’s goals and pace. Which should be a sweet spot between not being developed enough and over-extending its stay.

This [roadmap] is still true. I’ve mostly been the only one to do anything on the prototypes, so before anyone else starts really working on them, I think it is pretty silly to try to lock in a roadmap.

I agree with this as well. We should give ourselves several releases without an overarching roadmap, as it will let us explore different possibilities without too immense of a constraint placed on us.


If we are adding this macroscopic stage as a replacement for late multicellular instead of having a larger aware stage or such, we’d need to think of an ending point for this new stage, considering above problems related to the nervous system as a benchmark.

Some of the significant phases in a playthrough would probably be:

  • Introducing yourself to the various organ systems, which would happen throughout the first several generations.
  • Evolving a skeletal structure to unlock more advanced tools, which I think could be ideal to have once players demonstrate proficiency in the base mechanics of the stage.
  • Transitioning to land, which depending on player choices (exoskeleton v. endoskeleton v. molluscoid/soft-bodied).
  • Reaching a point of sentience at which manipulation of tools becomes a factor, representing a transition to awakening.

I think it’s okay if the Aware stage is longer by including early macroscopic gameplay - the stage does represent Thrive’s most anticipated and innovative experience after all, and should have a lot of meat on its bones. So having that stage represent biological macroscopic gameplay, starting with the advent of the macroscopic stage and ending with sufficient sentience gained, isn’t something that I think would be bloated. But I understand the implications of having a huge stage on planning efforts.

And another thing: maybe we can look for a more emotive name than “Macroscopic”. Perhaps we can engage the community in coming up with a name?

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I think we can just keep the stage “borders” as is, and just make it official that late multicellular is named macroscopic and is in fact a separate stage.

In the game code anyway we’ll likely end up in a situation where the world environment setup is the same all the way from macroscopic to society stage (where it would change to a strategy game style setup). So all of the features will just get bundled into one and just gated based on what capabilities the player species has / what stage it is marked as being in. I just wanted to bring that up even if that isn’t super relevant in the wider discussion how the game internal code architecture is probably going to end up being.

I’m fine with asking but I kind of doubt we’ll have a better name, as macroscopic is quite descriptive, it is a real word and unofficially later part of multicellular has been called macroscopic for years. In fact the fans on the community forums already are pretty familiar with the macroscopic term usage. It probably helps that there is a button in the game right now that says “become macroscopic.”

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If no one objects (or has a more optimal name in mind), I think we can make macroscopic stage official.

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