Thim's vision of Thrive (as of 2025)

Up to this point, Ive intentionally avoided big threads on how I think Thrive should play later stages. It’s energy that could be spent working on the current game, if people disagree with me it’s even more energy spent having arguments that won’t likely effect the game that gets developed, and if everyone thinks my ideas are great it puts pressure on future generations of developers to do something just because everyone kinda remembers that we agreed to do something.

But Deus encouraged me, and maybe things are moving faster, and frankly I’m not contributing much to Thrive right now anyway, so heck with it! The following is how I currently envision all the pieces of Thrive fitting together. I do think all of this is POSSIBLE to create, but it doesn’t nessicarily line up with what’s already been developed, and I don’t expect it to actually happen. If I’m still around to see later stages get worked on, I also expect I wouldn’t still agree with what I say here:

Also, I intentionally didn’t read iosononeon’s post before writing this, because this is a brain-dump, not a rebuttal. I assume we disagree, and I will find out how when I read that post.

Microbe Stage
I think it’s fitting that we’ve been stuck on microbe stage so long; to most players microbe stage would be a microcosm of the whole game, the encouragement to stick around for the rest, and the trial to “earn” the rest of the game. I envision a lot of players wanting to skip microbe (and probably multicellular) to get to the more charasmatic “real” animals, then feeling the experience is somehow “hollow” without starting early enough in the planetary history.
The observent player will notice that this stage serves a second purpose: defining the metabolisms of the main groups of life (which is too much detail to worry about in later stages). Never again is it as easy to adjust membranes and organelles as it is in these early eons, and the basic exchange rates of the cells present at the end of microbe stage serve as the base stats of life moving forward, providing a “seed” of sorts for what life on this particular planet is capable of. Try-hard players would use this, along with trying to time the jump to multicellular with the movement of tectonic plates and atmospheric changes, to meta-game the rest of the planet’s history. To normal people, microbe stage is tutorial island.

Multicellular stage
I would design multicellular stage to increasingly force the player to let go of control over individual cells. I made a video a while back about my experiments in cells making independent decisions in a multicellular organism, and as you grow larger you increasingly need to trust in parts of your body to do their job. Instead the player’s focus is on designing a layout of cells that work as a body, perhaps with things like propulsion limbs or a digestion area, and mentally bridge the gap from being a colony to a body (which is too much detail to worry about in later stages).
I would also limit how much you can really fine-tune cells, either drastically increasing MP costs to change things, or having a whole new menu of mutations that force you into the same basic blueprint of life. Maybe you can only add certain parts like flagella, toxin, cillia, or neurons, and internal parts just scale magnitude to match. The basic way life on your world metabolizes is locked in now. Sure hope you didn’t soft-lock yourself with a microbe that doesn’t work multicellularly :slight_smile:

macroscopic stage
At this point, the species is too big to count cells, and we’ve established that the player is smart enough to know how an animal’s body works, so it’s time to actually get to be an alien! The player is now one entity again, and it’s a wiggly organism that always swims in water. In my “wildest dreams” game there is no aware stage, and with it no need to ever have a spine, but in my practical dream, macroscopic is limited to free-swimming sea life specifically because we aren’t trying to procedurally animate every imaginable invertebrate, just jellyfish and worms and sea bugs. Stubborn players will try to explore these possibilities as long as possible, but most will give in to the temptation of all the “requires spine” parts and move on to more complex, but more restricted, life forms.
I don’t really know what makes this stage special. The environment is changing, the competition for survival intense, but that’s true of the stage before and after. This is the one stage that doesn’t have a level of detail established that all later stages take for granted. If anything this might just be a technical stepping stone, and a slight tutorial for playing in 3D before the player starts walking and invalidates half of the lessons learned.

Aware Stage
Aware is tricky in my eyes, because it’s kind of the culmination of the game, and kind of where two different kinds of progression happen. On the one hand, the “point” is to get more brains and become sentient. That said, the move to land is really essential for that. Forbidden topics aside, being an underwater tribe that can’t go beyond the stone age is a silly dead end, and not something I would invest resources in developing. And besides, land is a fascinating new environment to explore, and something to do.
All THAT said, I could see this stage being a great filter. If we do our job right in making a game about adapting to environments instead of sandboxing your dream species to the top, a lot of species might just not find a natural reason to get too smart, and in my dream game we wouldn’t discourage that. But the path to paying taxes is up above the waves, and in a bigger brain, and I would trust determined players to try to find a way to get there. And I would actually let it be difficult, and not that viable in some games. Encourage exploring the biosphere of the world, (maybe even jumping species some) and getting to know what it means to be a living thing on this planet (which is too much detail to worry about in later stages)

Awakening stage
This is actually the stage I’m most excited about in my dream version of Thrive, but probably not one I would enjoy very much if we ever actually get here. To me, Awakening stage isn’t about working your way up the tech tree in a survival game. Not only does Minecraft already exist, but the player has already survived in the environment, as a dumb (and often solitary) animal. Instead, Awakening is about figuring out YOUR species does civilization on THIS world (which is too much detail to worry about in later stages)
Awaking stage would focus less on getting the ingredients to make fire and more about figuring out what to cook and how you’re supposed to cook it, as well as which members of the tribe eat first and why. I would actually add a full on myth editor, where you can craft stories about species in your environment and encourage your tribe (which you partially control) to act in a certain way. As your population grows, individual control gets increasingly impractical and you need to develop a more and more complex social structure to keep (most) people useful. Eventually you get so complex, and capable, that you begin to resemble…a society
This stage both serves to provide some unique character to your species as a whole, and puts you on a “team” for the next two stages. Some things you do effect how sentience works world-wide, while others are unique to you in the next stage.

Society Stage
Alright, time to burn the rest of the goodwill I have with this team: I think Thrive should include racism. I think Industrial stage should be mostly about racism, and I think that Society stage should be racist.
By society stage, it’s not a mystery which species is going to dominate the planet. Maybe you will wipe yourselves out with doomsday weapons before going to space, but it’s a while before anyone even invents those. So what’s the stakes in all these ancient empires? The same as in the microbe to aware stage: to see if your unique take on life survives to the next level.
In society stage you start as one city-state, belonging to a culture group currently unique to you. As you expand, rouge colonies, and rebel states are nearly inevitable, but not entirely bad: any society that splits from you shares your culture group. Depending on how advanced culture mechanics get there may be some drift, from a lineage standpoint they are still tied to the parent society, with multi-culture-group societies probably coming in as a late society/early industrial development.
When your country falls or loses to a revolution, you may pick any other from your culture group to play on as, excluding the one that took you down. There is still motivation to get and stay big (the AI countries will probably suck), but there’s also a lot of reason to look after other countries that are like you against distant barbarians. AI civilizations have a similar in-group bias, but are not particularly interested in moving up the tech tree for its own sake, or tying to reach the next stage. Moving the species into enlightenment is mostly something the player has to do, if the player can survive.
In any realistic game about history, there’s no way a country at the start of civilization is there at the advent of the steam engine, and I would tune society stage similarly, where holding a country together against decadence is a snowballing effort, and the real goal of metagamers in early society is to just make a big enough empire to serve as buffer against other culture groups while building up the next country to get a little more advancement. And, of course, to build a lot of stories along the way.
I would also not try to center society stage around a city, and go turn based. Y’all are welcome to amaze me with your game technology, but I just don’t see how you do a civilization like the British empire justice in real time, while only seeing London. In addition, I would have society stage have the smoothest transition out, which a few key techs adding new game mechanics, with the most important ones being the “doomsday techs” (pollution, nukes, maybe a cool bioweapon thing that didn’t happen in our timeline but happens on a third of worlds or something). I would also have this be the only stage where an AI can outpace you, under the soft understanding that if you stick around in society stage while someone else invents the modern age, you will probably not stick around too long. If someone in your culture group is doing the domination, congrats on (eventually, hopefully) getting a free boost to the next stage. If it wasn’t, then game over; somebody else gets to write the story of your world’s society, and you get to be an indigenous culture for the museums.

Industrial Stage
Now that you’ve clawed your way to survival, it’s time to clean up the mess you made getting here! I would keep the culture group mechanic at this stage to avoid confusing players (and because it’s possible to come into industrial stage as a tiny nation that is about to die), but at this point timetables are shorter, and you’re likely to come out of industrial stage as the same country you came in as. The real challenge isn’t making sure someone like you survives, but that the species as a whole makes it to space without blowing up. Previous history has provided a lot of time for biases and grudges, once again no AI nation is trying to reach the next stage like you are, and it’s only a matter of time before everyone develops a way of destroying your world, even if only through a slow death by greenhouse gasses (and I would play up, and even exaggerate, the “doomsday” power of pollution and nukes, because that’s more fun). Depending on your situation and how you got this far, you will need to do some combination of convincing nations to put aside differences and work together, and forcing unruly peoples to get in line and adapt to a future that keeps your species alive.
This is what I meant by being about racism. A problem I have with most CIV-type games (and I admit I haven’t played enough to have a truely informed opinion) is that there’s no concept of advancement as a society other than conquering the world. Sure, sometimes you conquer the world through culture, or by developing technology that totally isn’t for killing people but somehow means you win, or just making a really big statue, but it’s still conquering the world. I think that a game about civilization, particularly a game about civilization as an extension to evolution, should be about aligning your world, maybe “unifying” it. Not nessicarily under you, but enough that people can agree on not doing stuff to kill each other, even when that might put people in a better position to kill you. Destroying all other cultures in one way to help with this, but so might merging all culture groups until everyone is on the same “team”, or even choosing to take second-fiddle to a bigger nation that you’ve come to trust. I’ve always hated 4X games where I try to play “nice”, just to realize I have to stab my nice ally in the back before they make too many ice cream cones and conquer the galaxy through ice cream victory condition.
In my dream Thrive, there’s also a backpath out of Industrial stage: build a sleeper ship out of the solar system. This ends Industrial immediately, and you begin space as a lost colony, maybe to find out what happened to your parent planet later. It’s a penalized start to the next stage, but it might be a lot easier than trying to fix a world that’s gotten really messed up.

Space Stage
I don’t really know what Space stage is about, but I don’t really think it needs to. I think it’s agreed that we are going with a FTL space stage, which means this is already fantasy (fight me), and frankly we aren’t covering much of any real science here. I would imagine this is the “silliest” stage, with a random smattering of exploring other runs of auto-evo, conquering the galaxy, and society stage all over again.
Building an ascension gate is either something every space empire wants, and is a tight constraint to keep you from goofing off too much (or getting bored), or is something only you feel motivation to do, if you do, and serves as a way to end space stage when your done. In the mean time, fun sci-fi threats create some drama, but I don’t imagine much deep history here. unlike in previous stages where everything is telling the story of your planet, if you lose in space stage (particularly if you meet a fate where you are annihilated) your previous game doesn’t really matter anymore. Even if things go alright, as space empires rise and fall, and species mix and mingle, the story of the galaxy increasingly stops being about what happened on your planet, and more about what a bunch of randomly generated planets do. Maybe that’s worth it, and Space stage is just a stellaris-like sandbox where you forget the rest of your game, but my guess it’s more Masters of Orion: a short scramble for each species, all new to the stars, get a mastery of things before getting wrecked by somebody else.

Accention Stage
Accention stage isn’t a stage. It’s Space stage with cheats on, mixed with some freeplay modes of other stages. I’m not complaining about that; it sounds like a nice break for both the players and developers. Shame we’ll probably never get there :squinting_face_with_tongue:

Feel free to discuss, but I mostly consider all of the above to be pure fan fiction, and not particularly important compared to anything posted by a fan on the community forum. I’m mostly curious what I think about it in a few more years time. I have the strongest opinions on Multicellular of course, and I’m sure I’ll enter those debates in good time, as that stage looms ever closer.

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@iosononeon has started a movement! Really glad to see another reflection pop up.

I do agree with this take, and will add another area of characterization - the world itself. I view the Microbe Stage as a period characterized by the massive flux the planet goes through, going from a freshly-created lump of rock into a complex cradle of life with unique biogeochemical cycles. So along with the definition of life itself, I think the Microbe Stage can ideally have a strong influence on what your actual world looks like, as well as its unique intricacies. Little cosmetic things like changing the type/color of texture used depending on the concentrations of compounds as you exit the Microbe Stage, to altering the sky color, etc. I think would do wonders for player imagination and immersion. Though obviously, gameplay itself is priority.

The latter part (tutorial island) is definitely something I want to avoid as much as possible if players specifically opt out of a on-ramp experience. Because if the Microbe Stage is tutorial island, then realistically, there would be limitations on what the player experiences there. And if there are limitations on what the player experiences in the Microscopic stages, they could easily perceive it as a chore in the way of getting to the meaty and more complex Macroscopic Stages. In my eyes, normal people should view the Microbe Stage as a special portion of the playthrough where you witness the birth of your new world, and experience all the hardships your world goes through as it reaches maturity.

I do very much like the idea of try-hards min-maxxing atmosphere engineering however.

I don’t fully agree with making this a basis of the Multicellular Stage, as I think even with the current prototype players really like the idea of tweaking multiple cells. But that definitely is a very interesting mechanic, and I do remember being very intrigued by that video.

At the very least, I wonder if there could be some sort of part or system that does automate certain systems with certain conditions, similar to your battleship video - so that it isn’t necessary, but an additional very interesting level of customization. That way, players still have to tweak their cells, but can also experiment with a sort of decentralization. Kind of like how in Minecraft, redstone engineering isn’t at all necessary, but can result in some extremely impressive and engaging gameplay. There were some early concepts about the Macroscopic/Aware Stage like that with various organ systems, but I do think that would be much more approachable for the Multicellular Stage.

So I still prefer creating specialization via methods such as that suggested by Rathalos, in an adjacency-bonus proximate. However, I would definitely read more from you on such an interpretation if you have the time to write it out.

I largely agree here when it comes to invertebrates - target specific body plans, like jellies, worms of various shapes, and bugs, instead of just fully going “yeah you can do whatever you want”. We obviously can’t represent everything, but we can target a good deal of body plans if we focus on the most significant families of the animal kingdom.

This is something that I really wanted to tackle with my macroscopic editor concepts focused on constraints. It’s like 10 posts long and I’m making some sort of document to condense it as much as possible. But essentially: just like how KSP focuses on mass, center of gravity, and aerodynamics as general challenges you must fight with your toolkit, the Macroscopic/Aware Editor has numerous constraints that have a heavy influence on your alien’s stats.

Where this is relevant to the quote above is by altering the importance of specific constraints depending on how advanced your organism is. For many early animals, surface area was really important due to exchange with the environment through your skin still being a very important factor. If we, say, make it so that players start with a skin structure that makes a surface area constraint more important, then in the early game, players will pursue very unique shapes. Then, after a certain level of progression, surface area becomes less important, and something else, like mass, becomes more important - thus changing again how a player designs their organism.

Long story short: I think if we design the editor well, we can introduce different dynamics across different parts of the Macroscopic/Aware Stage to encourage different builds. Long story even shorter: read every single one of my contrived posts in the Macroscopic Editor Thread. Or wait for the document I’m making. Be impressed with it. Laugh. Dream. Love. Cry.


I don’t want to dominate this thread with more of a text dump to the rest of your post so that other developers can respond as well, and I’ll respond to your later stage overviews with another reply in a bit. But I again want to express appreciation for you taking the time to create your reflection, and will again encourage other developers to create similar posts.

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To comment on this specifically: I am hoping Microbe stage gets to a state where, on the difficulty players get thrown in by default the first time, it can be tutorial island. There is enough complexity, but maybe you don’t need to actually use all of it to progress.

But if you set it to “I know Thrive” difficulty, it’s as difficult as the later stages. Less complex perhaps, but that just means you need to use every tool available to survive. To achieve this, Microbe stage could scale up with the difficulty setting harder than the later stages.

Ideally, on sufficiently high difficulty, this would mean less “I set up my metabolism an world state exactly as I planned” and more “I did what I had to do to get out on top, this is the metabolism and world state I am left with to build the rest of life on”.

While I agree with moving moving from a collection of cells to a coordinated body, I am not sure how that translates to letting go of control over individual cells? And more particularly, how that translates to current gameplay? It is not like in the current prototype we are controlling what individual cells are doing: we give general commands that all cells than respond to.

If anything, realistically, moving from a colony to a multicellular organism is the opposite process: Going from an association of independent cells, to having more and more control over what other cells are doing. Currently, you are controlling a vast number of muscle cells just to sit upright, and when a carnivorous plant closes up, vast numbers of cells respond to a single signal.

From the video, I guess you are talking about things like:

  • Cells automatically shooting toxins at nearby targets
  • Cells automatically engulfing
  • Cells automatically activating defenses

That’s certainly a strategy that a lot of real life organisms use for part of their cells, but it is not a universal pattern I think.

I wasn’t aware (haha) of Aware stage plans being so spine-centric. No options for brains without spinal cords to advance? Because unless we don’t want invertebrates like crabs or insects to be crawling around anywhere at all, we would still need to animate that style of life.

Agreed on making sure increasing intelligence is not the only obvious way for evolution to go. I think this could be achieved by making sure increased intelligence is a way to compete for certain niches (that makes sense to continue going down), but not the only one, and is competing with many other options to achieve the same.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the term you are looking for is actually “cultural chauvinism”. In other words, viewing your own culture as superior, possibly wanting to expand its influence, and possibly wanting to diminish other cultures to achieve that. (A lot of “possiblies” here, I imagine there would be many options) That’s regardless of how you choose to exclude people from your culture or not.

If there is racism in Thrive, I would want it to be as real racism is: a possible trait of a culture, in which certain people are discriminated against or not considered really part of the same culture, based on slight phenotypical differences that don’t really matter on their own.

To go harder on this: I think multi-culture-group societies, assuming you mean political entities, should be a thing from very early on in the stage. Pretty much the first type of state that we see after the origin of city-states is the empire, which is by very definition multi-ethnic/cultural. Figuring out how to handle that is one of the most important themes in history, and should be in Thrive as well.

I agree that I cannot see how this could focus on one city, this needs to interact with the rest of the world.

Turn based is possible, but an alternative could be Paradox GSG style: “real time”, except a minute is 10 years (for example). Turn-based can be more abstracted, perhaps better hiding how we’re compressing time. Keeping real time-ish flows better with the previous stages I think.

Another grab from the Paradox bag: being subjugated or conquered does not have to be an end state. Countless political polities an cultures have been conquered, only for the conquering empires to be defeated, and new polities to pop up in those places. Culturally changed in some ways, but still distinct from one another, and the former empire. It would be ideal if Thrive can represent that.

Which brings me to:

I like the idea of viewing this whole period as a cultural competition, especially as an extension of the evolution game (I guess I have to watch that video of yours!). But while I do think it can be said that cultures evolve, I think there is an important distinction to make that I think we need to represent to do right to reality and the many cultures within it: There is much more lateral transfer of “memes” (yes, I am using the term in its original meaning), than there is lateral transfer of memes. Lines of descent and groupings of culture are much less clear-cut.

The Malagasay peoples of Madagascar are a merger of Austronesians from East Asia and “Bantu-speaking people” from Africa. I wouldn’t want to put an exclusive stamp on them. I would much rather try to have a “degree of relation” system, or non-exclusive groups. I think it will make for a richer experience.

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I’ll copy a comment I just made on Discord:

I just realized that in an optimal world, we would do Microbe Stage twice:

  • First would be a tutorial-like mode that helps new players by not having all mechanics / delayed introduction of mechanics,
  • And second would be a much more intensive experience with all mechanics kicking in immediately and much more environmental instability and variance between runs like Deus has been talking about and making balancing tweaks for,

But I don’t think we have enough resources at this stage of development to do both…

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