Toxin Immunity

With @Rathalos’s auto-evo improvements really improving how varied and competitive organisms are, I think the lack of counters against toxins is becoming more obviously a deficiency.

If a significant percentage of organisms in your world evolve toxins, options become much more limited. Two facets of the game are particularly affected:

  • Predation - A significant number of organisms become inedible. Predation itself is seen as unrewarding as is by some players, so this is particularly devastating to heterotrophy as a strategy.
  • Constant Danger From Even the Tiniest of Threats - Because there is no counter, even a really small nuisance - like encountering a single, tiny prokaryote, as a giant eukaryote, with toxins - would be an immense struggle. If you encounter a swarm, forget it.

It’s a good thing to have harms that cannot fully be avoided in playthroughs - that creates a threat that the player will always have to be mindful of. However, a major component of a well-designed threat is the opportunity to counter a threat. If a player is facing an active harm that can never be fully mitigated, that’s seen less as a threat, and more as unfair.

A lock of immunity doesn’t just effect the Microbe Stage: this can easily spiral out of control in the Multicellular Stage. Multicellular organisms are larger, slower, and generally less maneuverable - so it is even harder for them to avoid toxins, and even easier for them to fall prey to toxicity. If a player constantly has to restart progress to a threat that they feel no escape from, that can very easily lead to a frustrating situation.


We want to make sure that toxins remain potent, but there’s a way to ensure that any counter isn’t too expansive:

  • Immunity Only Targets One Toxin Type - players have to choose which agent has damage nullified (except for membranes, which have their own balancing to consider).
  • Immunity Is Not Comprehensive - players can never fully nullify a toxin; just debuff it to the point that it can be digested, or can be managed to the point that a player has enough time to react.
  • Immunity is Iterative - You can’t go from vulnerable to robust in a single generation. Building immunity would take multiple generations.
  • Immunity is Expensive - You can’t just spam immunity parts willy-nilly; they take a massive ATP drain, and thus, must be managed strategically.

A potential solution?

  • Immunity part/upgrade, perhaps to lysosomes, but if not, a seperate part themselves.
  • A single immunity part costs 7 ATP to maintain, and costs 55 MP to obtain.
  • A single immunity part nullifies damage/effects from a particular toxin by 15%.

As such; it would take 3 generations, and 21 ATP at the least, to nullify the effects of a toxin by 45%. Which I think is a fair process. This would still make toxic organisms a threat and not easy to digest, but would atleast make them edible. And would make hostile toxic organisms remain a threat that must be neutralized, but not necessarily a death sentence - unless you bump into an overwhelming number of them.

We would need to make sure that auto-evo is atleast somewhat cognizant of immunity, so that it doesn’t just universally focus on one agent type. I think current playthroughs already can display a decent variety of agents.

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As an aside: if toxins in particular become just too prevalent, adjusting their auto-evo occurrence down is also quite possible.

I think this is the larger problem, because the only real counter is “just don’t use engulfment, but toxins and pili instead” isn’t actually that fun.

This I am less sure about. If any random prokaryote with toxins is lethal, then I would expect the same to be true if they had pili? If that’s not the case, that suggests toxins are just too strong in general.

Countering threats like this should always be able to be countered by running away or killing the threats, right?

Won’t this be a bit too overwhelming and overly complex? Human players especially will be defending against general threats they see, usually not specific other species. I am wondering if having 5 different types of toxin resistance to juggle might be too much.

Maybe having just one resistance is fine if it’s not too strong per part?

Perhaps the more important part is that a bit of resistance should not be equally effective against any amount of toxin investment by the other side. It should be possible to overwhelm resistance with more toxins. Make it an arms race.

As long as this is a stat applied to the cell/species clearly, this should not be too difficult, though it won’t happen automatically like some other changes.

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I think the auto-evo rates are fine as is honestly; you’ve done a good job balancing items. It’s not every single species that evolves toxins in the worlds I’ve played on, just some branches of organisms that are persistently a nuisance.

Thing is that external digestion as a whole is really unreliable, so if toxins are made to be weaker, players might have very little incentive to go with them at all. Before a toxin balance push I had about a year ago that buffed them, it was almost impossible to be a successful predator using toxins.

Also: the issue with toxins isn’t that they cause a whole lot of damage - unless I had a single membrane, it would usually take about 4 hits to kill, which is reasonable. The issue is that the tools in the game just aren’t sufficient towards countering toxins. It’s less about the damage, and more about mobility in the Microbe Stage making evasion pretty difficult - especially if you’re a eukaryote being pestered by an extremely mobile and persistent prokaryote. And if we nerf projectile speed like they were before, they’d once again be rather useless.

Toxins are just also more easily understood by the AI I feel. Projectiles are a pretty easy offensive weapon to use, while pili involves more physics that the AI might not be fully capable of taking advantage of. If we nerf toxins too, then threat from microbes besides engulfment is much more minimal.

I think a general toxin resistance would make immunity much too broad of a counter rather than targeted immunity. Having it be targeted makes the player have to pay attention to immunity, while a general effect requires less strategy; the burden is shifted to investment rather than strategy, and in my personal opinion, I think an arms race is better to be constrained by strategy rather than pure investment amount.

And also to be fair, it’s mostly two toxin types that cause an immense amount of damage. The other three have more varied effects. So players would naturally have more prioritized toxins to counteract.

Having targeted toxins also leads to a bit of evolutionary storytelling - early on, maybe the primary toxin that was utilized was the one that attacked non-specialized membranes, and immunities of the time were targeted against that. When oxygen arose, the toxin attacking aerobic parts become more effective, and immunity shifted towards that.

If it’s easy enough, perhaps there could be a choice between a general resistance that is weaker, or a targeted resistance that is stronger. Kind of like the vacuole upgrades.

That is a good point about having the potential to overwhelm resistance. I do think there are tools in the game currently to replicate that a bit - potency vs. fire rate jumping to mind, as well as generation rate. Though I wonder if the underlying concept could be tweaked a bit.

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Just an addition I thought of:

We can kind of get started on this before having more advanced mechanics in place:

How about one toxisome is no longer enough to kill an engulfer, you need two or three? I am not even sure right now if engulfed toxin damage is taking damage resistance from for example the nucleus into account.

I was thinking of making a true immunity a less powerful and more balanced mechanism to metabolise and neutralise oxytoxy (or other toxins) by having an organelle upgrade or a specialised organelle.

This upgrade would use ATP and/or other cofactors to neutralise the toxins in form of a process that activates and accelerates in function of how much toxin is absorbed. This basically redirects the issue of toxins being too OP and hard to play against due to constant damage, especially when a lot of enemy species develop such defense mechanism, to an internal process depleting resources instead of HP.

Of course, how powerful this upgrade would be is exclusively determined by the number of upgraded organelles. The player should balance this with the ATP production in order to maintain the energetic balance, so he can’t just spam this upgrade throughout the cell to become “immune”.

An alternative to this upgrade would be a brand new organelle, the peroxisome, but I think this feature would be better suited as a simple upgrade for a vacuole or a lysosome.
This upgrade, or organelle, can be a precursor for future tissues like liver tissue.

I’d like to point out that that is the most complex implementation-wise idea (as it shifts from immediate damage to “buffering” the damage and needing a new system then that triggers the real damage from toxins and ways to track how close to causing damage the toxin is).

That’s why toxin resistance / damage reductions have been talked about (even by me) as they are vastly simpler changes to program than overhauling how toxin damage works.

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I understand your concern. So, I suppose the only way around this would be to just nerf the damage of the toxins.

By the way, just to clarify, are your concerns about “complexity” just implementation-wise (e.g. it would take too much time and effort) or even gameplay-wise? Because to be fair, for the latter complexity I’d enjoy having another layer of management to survive toxin-rich environments. But that’s my biased view of enjoying complexity in strategic games, perhaps.

We’ve been talking on Discord with @Rathalos about this and one more idea came up:
colony members could share the damage they receive from toxins. So in effect diluting the damage and not making any colony cells to die until like the entire colony runs out of health. That would make big colonies basically unkillable by small toxin-spamming bacterial.

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That sounds like a sensible solution, though it would be only effective in multicellular. But I believe that’s exactly the stage where the issue with toxins are happening.

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