Radiotrophy

Gameplay
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I was thinking more about radiotrophy, I think it’s a really interesting idea. Here’s an idea for mechanics for it, would love to know what everyone thinks.

  1. While planetary O2 is low and there is little Ozone layer it can work like a chloroplast, on surface patches there is some “cosmic radiation” amount and you can harvest it to make glucose.

  2. There can be radioactive rocks you find as you swim around. I think it would be cool to use the geiger counter sounds for it as they are so immediately communicative

Each rock has a max_intensity value. Each tick each rock generates a pulse of random intensity between 0 and it’s max_intensity value.

Each cell has a low radiation threshold and a high radiation threshold. The low is fixed and the high is the low + a constant multiplied by the number of melonin organelles you have. So if you have no melonin they are equal, if you have a lot then they are far apart.

The radiation dose you receive is the intensity of the pulse the rock sends out divided by your distance to it. If that received dose is less than your low threshold nothing happens, if it’s between your low and high you gain some glucose, if it’s above the high you take a little damage.

I hope that’s not too confusing. I think what this would mean is you would get this rattling geiger counter type pattern when near the rock. The player could then feel out the right distance to be based on how much glucose they were making vs how much damage they were taking.

For AI we could work out the right distance for each rock and each cell so that it could sit at just at the point where it would never take damage but would collect glucose. That is distance = max_intensity / high threshold.

Hopefully that would feel quite “radioactivey” and also be quite intuitive to figure out. All feedback welcome, not sure if this is a good idea.

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Oooh i like how this mechanic sounds, it’s very unique.
However, how will the player know that they’ll be damaged if they get too close but then they will get glucose if they are a bit further? What if the player gets near the rock without noticing it and then interprets that what harms them is staying too long and not too near? Specially if a geiger counter is playing. As someone who’s played Fallout that sound only means “get the heck away form here”.
Overall it looks very promising and i think these questions could be answered once we can use this mechanic in game.

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I imagine all players would look at the tool tip before putting melonin on which might help them understand how to use it. I guess for any cell which doesn’t have melonin then the sound would mean get away.

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Maybe the sound could change depending on if your cell sports melonin or not? The sound could be less hostile when your cell has melonins and isn‘t too near to the source of radioactivity.

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5

Hello sorry for disappearing for a week, this sounds great.

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rocks
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Melanin
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I made these two concepts for the mechanic, I’m not a fan of the “radioactive things glow” trope but since cells don’t have an actual vision and they detect chemicals i thought we could have some artistic licenses, think of the glow as some short of radiation vision.
Now, I have some questions about melanin. While it’s true that it’s used by some fungi to metabolize radiation we, who also use melanin, can’t do that. For realism sake, I thought about making two versions of melanin, one that only protects you against radiation (but gives you high resistance) and another that protects you and also gives you glucose. The problem is that this is too redundant and a version that gives you glucose has a higher incentive than just buying normal melanin.
I think it’s neat that we have a hazard and something to protect you against it, but i’m not sure about this protection also giving you a bonus.
Do you have any thoughts about this?

1 Like
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I’ve had a bit of a look and I think that the melanin radiotrophs use is the same as that which other animals have, though I may well be wrong. Its says on wikipedia

“Some types of fungi, called radiotrophic fungi, appear to be able to use melanin as a photosynthetic pigment that enables them to capture gamma rays and harness this energy for growth.”

And it links to this paper which I think is just talking about regular melanin.

So I’m not so sure that it is a different thing, though maybe it is being used differently, I’m not sure how well understood radiotrophy is.

Talking of large animals with melanin though I think it’s a great example of something we could use for animals to be able to alter themselves on a cellular level meaningfully later in the game, which is great. I think stuff that ties cell edits to macro animal physiology is great and we need as many examples as we can get.

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The difference between our melanin and the radiotrophic fungi is likely the same as the difference between chlorophyll and chloroplasts. Melanin is simply a pigment protein, and cannot actually generate any energy on its own. All it does is absorb a certain range of wavelengths of light. As a result of being built to absorb light, melanin provides colour to an organism.

Chlorophyll is the exact same, its simply a protein that absorbs light. If you want to actually harvest that light, you need to have additional proteins attached to the chlorophylls to create an overall light-harvesting machine. That’s what a chloroplast is.

So along the same lines, I think a good distinction to make would be to have Pigment Proteins or Melanin as one organelle, and what it does is protect an organism from harmful UV radiation. Then there’s a separate “Radioplast” organelle which specifically harnesses radioactive energy. Pigment Proteins and Radioplasts could cross-grade between each other, meaning an organism that already has pigment proteins could evolve one of them into a radioplast for cheaper than an organism evolving a radioplast from scratch.

In terms of the gameplay implications of radioplasts, how will we balance it with the other organelles? The main reason I wonder this is because before the Great Oxygenation Event (GOE) creates an ozone for the planet, the surface of the ocean is inhospitable to life because of the intense solar radiation. Even melanin is not enough to survive pre-GOE radiation levels on the surface. It’s only after the GOE leads to the formation of the ozone (as far as we know) that life evolved pigment proteins and migrated to the ocean surface. With radioplasts though, wouldn’t that take away the threat of solar radiation? Would it make it a no-brainer for an organism to evolve radioplasts?

Also, on the topic of sound effects, I’m unsure as to whether it would be good to have the geiger counter sound playing. It’s a very man-made sound to hear during the Microbe Stage.

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I think that is a very reasonable intuition. However the only evidence I can find is that it’s not a special type of organelle it’s just normal melanin. The wikipedia page links to this patent which is quite long but here’s some relevant sections:

The present invention provides a method of enhancing the
growth of an organism comprising increasing melanin con
tent in the organism to generate a melanized organism and
exposing the melanized organism to radiation to thereby
enhance the growth of the organism. The organism can be, for
example, a microorganism, a silk worm or a plant.

As used herein, a "melanized’ organism means an organ
ism in which the melanin content has been increased. The
organism can constitutively synthesize melanin, or be an
organism that does not constitutively synthesize melanin
where melanization is induced, for example, by providing one
or more genes required for melanin synthesis and/or the pre cursors for melanization.
The organism can be, for example, a microorganism, a silk
worm or a plant. The microorganism can be, e.g., a bacterium,
a plant, a protista, an algae or preferably a fungus. Suitable
fungi include, but are not limited to, Cryptococcus neofor
mans and Histoplasma capsulatum.

So I think it’s relatively clear they’re not talking about constructing some kind of special new organelle, it’s just using regular melanin.

I’m not sure I understand this because the GOE was caused by photosynthesizers right? But in order to do photosynthesis don’t they need to be bombarded by sunlight? How can they get enough light without getting too much cosmic radiation?

From the patent, which may be totally crazy,

It is possible that “radiosynthesis’ played an important role
during the early stages of life on Earth and that melanized
fungi were able to function as autotrophs—organisms
capable of making their own food. Given that terrestrial life
can capture visible electromagnetic radiation by photosyn
thesis, infrared radiation from geothermal ocean vents
and chemical energy from minerals, it is not Surprising that
Some organisms can also harness high energy photons by capturing them with melanin-type pigments. Radiosynthesis
provides the possibility of utilizing ionizing radiation as an
energy source for the Sustenance of life.

yeah this is a good point, I guess it depends if we can find a better sound which communicates well without being artificial. We could process a geiger counter type sound for example to be a spoosh and not a click or something.

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My guess is that they are referring to melanin because it is the protein in the proposed “radioplast” that is doing the radiation absorption. Plus it sounds like the scientists don’t have the full details for what larger organelle or apparatus the melanin is a part of, so it’s easier to just refer to the melanin. Chemically though, melanin is the same whatever cell its found in, and its chemical function is limited only to absorbing light.

From what I recall, the photosynthesizers live right on the border of where the sunlight is enough to power their chloroplasts but not too much that the radiation damages them. Then, as the oxygen levels in the atmosphere increase and an ozone is formed, they are gradually able to live closer and closer to the ocean surface as the intensity of the damaging radiation reduces. Eventually it reduces to the point that they can live right on the surface and even in tidepools, estuaries, and rivers.

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In reference to the sound effect, we could use bubbling/boiling water. It would convey radioactive heating of the surrounding fluid, getting louder or with faster sizzle noises as the player approaches the rock. It would be a more natural counterpart to a Geiger sound

One issue with this though is that a player might associate the sound with a vent instead of a radioactive rock.

Also, I like the Geiger sound more than a boiling sound even if it does seem more man-made. Just my personal preference.

2 Likes
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Yeah nice. I think it’s a tricky one as the Geiger counter is not so thematic but also communicates extremely effectively.

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Hello everyone,
I found an interesting article on representation of radioactive rocks. I share it with you.
http://www.geologyin.com/2015/02/top-radioactive-minerals-occurrence.html

Top%20Radioactive%20Minerals
Top%20Radioactive%20Minerals1200×630 155 KB

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After being brought up by Tjwhale in response to my post in Organelles / Mutations - #22 by Buckly, I have decided to approach this concept with some of my own ideas in an attempt to move it closer to finalization and implementation.
To begin, I really like Tjwhale’s idea of free-floating chunks periodically sending out radiating pulses of energy, though I’m not entirely sure the variable intensity would be necessary but it should cause much harm. From what I understand about the articles I have read online, radiosynthesis seems to be functionally similar to photosynthesis. I am going to go out on a branch here and assume
that they will consume and produce the same compounds, but instead of using visible spectrum/UV they will require higher frequency radiation to catalyze the reaction.

Below are two different concepts I have devised on how radiotrophic parts may function.

Concept A:
Going by my assumption that radiosynthesis is functionally similar to photosynthesis, these following stats are created to reflect that. Note that I am not exactly certain how to measure radiation within the game as a variable at the moment so for now required radiation is indeterminate. Also worth noting these stats are just to provide a general idea, we will need to test to figure out what seems and feels right.

Melaniplast(?):
0.07 CO2 + γ rad → Glucose 0.08 I’m sure everyone is tired of seeing “plast” but it seemed to be the most realistic choice.

Melanin Complex(???):
0.07 CO2 + γ rad → Glucose 0.02 I have no idea what to call the prokaryotic counterpart.

These parts here would generate glucose when in proximity to radioactive objects, and may offer a passive radiation resistance as a bonus, nifty!

Edit: Instead of using a direct variable, we could potentially just have the part generate a flat amount of glucose whenever the cell is hit by a radiation pulse, assuming that is going to be the primary means of obtaining radiation. If we go with this route, we will need to balance the glucose production based on the rate of pulses let out by the minerals so I dont have any solid numbers for that yet.

Concept B:
This idea is a bit more unusual in that instead of staying in constant contact with radiation, the cell would be able to “charge” their melanin. Irradiated melanin according to an article I read seems to be boosted in it’s ability to reduce NADH, which is important for energy production. Basically, Once your cell is hit with a pulse of radiation from any source, your radiotrophic parts would become charged and begin producing glucose at a constant rate for a time until they must be charged again. This would create an interesting dynamic where you could freely leave your source of energy and explore while still processing the radiation, until you find another. It’s somewhat similar to compound storage, but radiation instead.
The stats for this would likely be just like Concept A, but instead of requiring a set variable radiation amount, it would just start the process while irradiated.

With that out of the way, I’ve noticed that folks have debated on what sound irradiated materials should make to communicate the fact that they are irradiated. One of my favorite examples of radiation sounds I’ve encountered in videogames is the sounds a material called phazon makes in the metroid prime series.

Now obviously we would probably want the sound to be far less noisy and oppressive, but I would think that having a similar chime-like sound would make it sound so cool, and less jarring than a giger counter. Something our sound artists could experiment with for sure!

Edit: After a little contemplation I think it would be suitable if we forwent the implementation of a prokaryotic variant (Seriously what the heck would we call it?) and left radiosynthesis for eukaryotes. My reasoning is that since prokaryotes have their own special energy source, rustycyanin, it is only right that eukaryotes have something special to call their own. It also saves us the effort of trying to balance two different variants of the same part which can be alot of work. Also worth mentioning that as far as I have read, there are currently no examples of prokaryotic radiotrophs in reality, though I may be wrong.

3 Likes
15

I had a sudden urge to make a radiotrophy prototype yesterday. Here’s what I’ve ended up with.

Scattered throughout the environment are radioactive chunks (currently iron chunks with some particle effects and a yellow aura). The closer you are to a radioactive chunk, the higher the environmental radiation you experience (shown in the environmental compounds panel). So radiation is simply an area effect whose intensity scales with proximity. Effects from multiple chunks stack but total radiation is clamped at 100%.

All cells have a radiation resistance stat. The base resistance is 10%. If a cell’s current radiation exposure exceeds its radiation resistance, it takes damage. Damage scales with the difference between exposure and resistance. The radiation meter also blinks red when this happens.

Melanosomes (currently using the thermoplast model) create ATP from radiation and increase radiation resistance by 20% each. They require a nucleus.

Finally, if the player’s cumulative radiation exposure over the lifetime of their cell exceeds some fixed value, they get a free organelle in the editor (which can’t be a nucleus). This represents an increased but less controllable mutation rate for irradiated organisms. The total resets on death or reproduction.

Some things I learnt from this experiment:

  • While the icons for radiation and melanosomes are obvious (the radiation hazard symbol, duh), it’s hard to pick a good colour for the radiation compound. We already use quite a few greens and yellows, the classic colours for radioactivity, so there’s not a lot of space left in that chromatic region.

  • Radioactive chunks are a neat environmental hazard. They aren’t guaranteed to kill you, so there’s an engaging risk calculation if say you’re running from another cell and need to escape past a radioactive chunk.

  • The AI will need to have special cases to deal with radiation. Currently they often stay in the danger zone too long and die because they don’t know they have to avoid it. On the flip side, radiotrophs don’t know they have to stay nearby either, so they all die too.

  • Survival on radiation alone is nigh on impossible with the area effect approach. As soon as you move away from a radioactive chunk, you start dying.

  • Representing a radiotroph’s survivability in the editor is a challenge. In this system, I think the ideal approach would follow the day/night cycle model, where there’s an extra panel in the editor to change the environmental radiation level. This could be a slider. You could even show radiation resistance on the slider too, using a different colour for the danger zone or something.

  • The problems above and a lot of code snags make me question whether we should use this approach at all. Radiation exists in a grey area between stored and environmental compounds. Having stored radiation as a concept sounds really weird to me, but it doesn’t act much like an environmental compound in the code or editor, and having some kind of storage would at least make hops between radioactive chunks survivable.

EDIT: Forgot one important thing. I made a mock Geiger counter sound by playing a click sound more frequently when radiation increases, with some randomness. It sounds realistic but gets grating quite quickly. I think it would be better to just have radioactive chunks play a constant hum so it gets louder when you approach them (I believe @Twitchywhalez made a good one).

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Excellent work here! Glad to see someone tackling this diet.

Having a method of storing the energy would be preferred. I would suggest converting to glucose instead of ATP (as of now there is no data on the exact mechanisms of radiotrophy despite it being observed, so we can’t say for sure what the products are), or otherwise if you want something a bit more unique try the concept B approach.

I don’t think storing radiation as a compound is strictly necessary in the end.

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I think radioactivity should probably be handled by a special system rather than trying to shoehorn it into the compounds system. I was thinking that a radiation system could just track all radioactive emitters and cells and update a few times a second the radiation amount for each microbe.

This has come up in various discussions. Why I haven’t advocated for adding it yet is that I think currently microbes would get into a bit of a resource wasting loop where they consume ATP to make glucose and then they immediately try to burn the glucose to fulfil the energy demand of making it… So before this is doable / at the same time, I think some adjustment needs to be made for how intelligently the process system selects which processes to run and how fast.

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I could start working on the models of the radioactive rocks if no one has done it yet.

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Some people have tried but as far as I’m aware we don’t have any completed models, or even the WIP files. So yeah basically starting from scratch with new ones is fine.

I didn’t find the latest attempts by @Nunz which I’m sure there’s some images in our dev discord, but I couldn’t find them, the latest stuff I found was the same as was posted here already: Radiotrophy - #6 by DonGororo)

p.s. I was waiting for you to post an introduction thread, I was thinking of actually suggesting you could maybe work on the graphics for radiotrophy.

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I’m sure there’s some images in our dev discord, but I couldn’t find them

I’ll try to look up for them (not that it makes much sense tho), but I think what I’ve seen in this thread is quite enough for now. I can also search for some other references by myself if needed.

I was waiting for you to post an introduction thread

Will do in a moment.

upd. Found Nunz’s meshes.

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